Just found this wonderful web-site.. Its absolutely terrific.. Thanks for providing it.

My wife and I just purchased 20+ acres of land in North Montgomery County (Willis area). The soil is black land, and soil tests by TxA&M indicate low levels of Nitrate (9ppm), and Phosphorus (12ppm), with all other nutrients above Critical Levels.

The field has been used as grazing land for many years, and generally neglected. It currently has a random variety of native grasses on the land, with a majority of the grass being KR-Bluestem.

We would like to convert this land to produce a quality and marketable hay, and would appreciate your advice on the best way of achieving this objective.

It was recommended to us to plant Jiggs (planted as tops), is this a good suggestion?

It was also recommended that the land be disced in late February to chop up the existing grasses, and then let stand until the Jigg Tops are planted, at which time the land would be disced again just prior to planting, with fertilizer to follow after growth begins. We were also told that no cutting would likely be done during this first year, and the following year would generate a reasonable yield.

We are new to this, and would appreciate any and all input. Your suggestions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards
rayko

What a great, helpful forum! Thankyou!
I am in the process of purchasing 100 acres outside of Santa Cruz, Bolivia. The land is bottom land, (rarely flooded)sandy loam (bordering on sandy) soil, covered with poor quality native grasses, etc. From Nov-April there is plenty of rainfall, May-September dry, but we have access to irrigation. Nov-April humid with temps in the 90's, May-September temps in the 70's occasionally dipping to 50's for no more than 4-5 days. We are looking to plant a good hay/pasture grass for horses, probably a Bermuda (Tifton 85?).
My questions are:
Do you have any suggestions?
Is Tifton good for horses? What protein should we shoot for and how do we achieve that?
Where can I find a seller of Tifton 85 sprigs?
What are the soil requirements for Tifton 85 and/or other Bermuda's?
Is Tifton being grown in Brazil or Bolivia?
I have good access to chicken manure and cattle/horse manure.
Regards,
Tim Schoonmaker

To Date, I have had no responses to my original post regarding "Converting Old Grazing Land to Hay". However, after reviewing a lot of older historical postings, and doing some personal research, We've decided on a program.

I thought that I'd relate our experience to this forum, so it might possibly benefit others who may also have a similar question.

Our existing grazing land included KR Blue-Stem, which does not make for an appropriate Hay Crop. So Re-Doing our fields was the only alternative that we really had.

To that end, we have contracted with a local Farmer who also does Land Management Work for others, to re-do our fields. The program is as follows:

1) The existing growth on the land will be mowed down, scalping it as close to the ground as possible.

2) The land will then be disc'd at least three times to a depth of not less than 6 inches, to chop up everything that is there. The land will then sit for about 40 to 60 days, letting the chopped old growth materials return to the soil.

3) Following this waiting period, if any new growth appears and greens up, a herbicide will be applied to kill it off. Once killed off, the land will be re-disc'd again in preparation for planting.

4) We have decided to plant Jiggs on the property. It's fast growing, tough, drought resistant, and will eventually choke out anything remaing on the land. Its one tough grass. Jiggs will be planted as tops on the land.

5) Then, we let Mother Nature take its course. Once it starts to green up and grow, fertilizer will then be applied per the rate recommended by the Texas A&M Soil Testing Lab.

Unfortunately, the recent wet weather has made it all but impossible to get started on the land, so we need to wait until we can get 2-3 weeks of dry weather before getting started. Its pretty soggy out there right now.

I hope that this information is of help to someone out there who might be considering a similar program. As the months pass, and we get a chance to evaluate the results of this program, I'll "post" back to this site with the results.

Have a nice day.
Ray

Rayko,
I'm interested to learn why you chose Jiggs, over Tifton 85 or coastal? Are you planning to graze any of your land (for cattle or horses or both?), or are you just going to put up hay?
Best of luck with your endeavor and I'll be looking forward to reading about your comments and results.
Tim Schoonmaker

Rayko,

I also am interested in why jiggs over Tifton or coastal. Research by AM and postings on this site indicate that Jiggs is not as nutritional nor does it live up to the claims of jiggs producers. If one is going to spend the money to plant for hay to make money, I would encourage you to contact your extension agent in Montgomery county before making any purchases.

Thank you Tim and Dennis:

I truly appreciate your suggestions and thoughts regarding planting Tifton or Coastal over Jiggs.

It is not our intention to graze the land, but only produce hay.

I will immediately begin doing some additional research, and in turn post some of the information that I find out.

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments. It is much appreciated.

Best Regards
Rayko

Gentlemen:

I have had a chance to review all my research, and in addition, I have acquired new research materials on the pros and cons between Coastal, Tifton-85, and Jiggs.

My research sources included published Texas A&M documentation and research materials, along with a number of Scientific Demonstration Reports and articles, and finally, the farmers themselves who have empirical experience with the various types of hay, and their preferences. I personally have no opinion one way or the other, I'm just looking for a good hay that meets our needs.

It is not within the scope of a simple posting to go into all the details. But, I'd like to hit on several high points which may be of interest to you.

In order to make a proper hay selection for your field. A lot depends on the type of soil you have, along with your personal long term objectives. Therefore, there really is no one "perfect" hay choice that would suit everyone.

To begin:

In general, when folks talk about hay, they tend to refer to either Coastal, Tifton-85, or Jiggs, in terms that tend to be absolute. Whereby one "type" of hay is said to have more Protein Content than another "type" of hay, and therefore has more nutritional value than its alternative hay selection.

Reality: Nothing could be further from the truth. I quote directly from Texas A&M: "The quality of hay varies more than the quality of any other crop grown in Texas." Please note: They are not refering to the differences that exist between different hybrids, they are talking about the differences that exist within a given "type" of hay.

Let me give you an example: At the Regional Hay Show in Victory Texas, hay growers submitted samples of their hay for comparative Lab Testing. The various hays were grouped by the "Type" of hay they represented: Coastal, Alicia, Tifton-85, Jiggs, etc. and Lab Test comparisons were made between "identical types of hay".

In every single group of hay "type". The results for "protein content" varied very significantly. The results of the various Lab Tested levels of "protein content" were as follows:

Coastal: Highest=14.1% Lowest=2.3% Average=7.7%

Tifton-85: Highest=12.9% Lowest=3.8% Average=8.5%

Jiggs: Highest=16.7% Lowest=7.6% Average=12%

Unlike the "Protein Level Tests", The other factors that were Lab Tested between these various varieties, resulted in a surprising degree of similarity between the various varieties, with no dramatically higher or lower numbers being recorded when each of the varieties were compared.

The protein levels within the hay were more effected by "how the land, and the hay, had been managed during the growing process". And, NOT by which "type" of hay was being grown.

Another factor to consider is "Yield". Coastal has been around since about 1943, it has been the "grass of choice" for many decades in Texas. It represents the standard by which all other grasses are compared. Therefore, Coastal is typically given a ranking of 100%, and other varieties are compared to Coastal as a percentage figure. The newer Hybrids like Jiggs, and Tifton-85 both have consistently higher yields than Coastal, ranging from 142% for Tifton-85 and 130% for Jiggs. (Average Yield comparisons). The difference between Tifton-85 and Jiggs is about a 10% difference in yield.

The farmers who have raised these hays, have several things to say about each. When it comes to Tifton-85, there are several "draw-backs" that don't exist with Jiggs.

No matter who tells you otherwise, the farmers who plant Tifton-85, tell me that it is far more difficult to get a good stand established when compared to Jiggs. Jiggs is aggressive, tough, grows fast, and establishes itself quickly. It has the capacity to choke out anything in its path. While Tifton-85 is far more difficult to initially establish, and requires more care during the establishment phase.

Once Established, Tifton-85 is fast growing, but also has a unique characteristic, whereby the stem of the plant is quite thick. There is an "ideal" time to cut it for hay. If you miss that "ideal" time, the stem gets thicker and very hard, to the point that its useability is compromised. This is such a problem, that it is recommended that you must own your own tractor and bailing equipment so as not to miss that "ideal" cutting time. If you use a "contract cutter", and he doesn't get to you in a timely manner. You are in trouble. Having a hay that even a cow wouldn't eat. (Note: These are NOT my words, it is a quote from a farmer who raises this stuff.)

There are other factors that go well beyond the scope of this simple posting.

Therefore, for my purposes, and the black land that I have, Jiggs is the best choice for me. However, for someone else in a different situation, with different needs, another selection might be appropriate.

I hope I havn't bored you to death. And, I realize that others in my same situation would make a different selection, but, this works for me.

Best Regards to you all

Rayko

Ray,
Far from boring me to death, you did a great job of explaining why for you and your particular situation, Jiggs is the best choice. It stands to reason that Tifton 85 would not be the best choice for all situations, or else everyone would be planting it, and not other varieties. Thankyou for sharing your research. I am trying to evaluate different options for grass for hay and grazing and your input has been helpful. One of the problems I may have in the area I am (Bolivia) is that there is considerable rain, which obviously can make cutting hay at the exact optimal time problematical. I was considering Tifton 85 not so much for its protein content, because as you said, protein content seems to be more a result of amount of fertilization and not of grass type, but of its potiential yields as compared to the other varieties. Almost every study I have found, showed that Tifton 85 comes out on top in terms of yields. However, if, as you said, it has a narrow window for "ideal" cutting as compared to Jiggs or other varieties, this would be a negative for my own particular situation, which may outweigh its high potential yields. So might the relatively difficulty in establishing it. I am going to be attending the 3 day Forages workshop in April at Overton put on by Texas A&M, and your information will be invaluable when questioning the presenters. Any information I get there that I think would be useful to you, I will be sure to pass on.
Thanks again, Ray! As I said before, I'll be very interested to monitor your progress as you go through establishment, etc. and would be interested to learn from your problems (hopefully few) and successes (hopefully many).
Good luck!
Tim

Hi Tim:

Thanks so much for your kind response. I'm glad that some of the information I related was helpful.

I'd love to hear about the additional information you are able to get from the Texas A&M Workshop you are attending.

And, I'll keep you posted on our field renewal project as it progresses. The Field development farmer, that we are using to renovate our fields, has just finished discing the land, and we are now waiting the 45 to 60 days to see how effective this initial work will be in destroying the prior plant life, and preparing the ground. If new growth presents itself within the next 60 days, it will be herbicided for the final kill-off prior to planting. At least, that's the plan. Time will tell how effective the program will be.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again...

Ray

Gentleman...i am new to this site and new to ranching...but i would like to at least add my experience with Jiggs to the forum...maybe i can get some constructive feedback and maybe it will help some of the others trying to make a decision.

roughly a year ago i was in the same position of trying to find that "perfect" hay grass...was it coastal...was it tifton...was it jiggs...after a lot of talking and research, and visiting with my county agent, i decided to go with Jiggs.

i bought the place in Aug of 2004, the "field" we were reclaiming was heavily overgrown with weeds, "volunteer wheat", etc., i had been told that the field had been for years and years used in growing wheat and was considered to be "prime" growing land.

i had a guy come up from South Texas to "sprig" the Jiggs. we disced the field several times to prepare it according to his suggestions. i was told that the Jiggs would "cover" by early spring and we'd be cutting hay in the summer. we got good rain prior to the sprigging and it was a wet winter.

we noticed very quickly the field began to green up and were excited...turns out this was the "volunteer wheat" that apparently all the discing and rain got started. about May we decided that maybe we made a mistake...had lots of growth (weeds, misc. grasses) but nothing that seemed to be the Jiggs.

the sprigger/planter came up and we walked the approx 45 acres of field...turns out there were "patches" of Jiggs all over, not big patches by any means, some were as small as a couple of inches, some were a couple of feet...but it was there and you could see the aggressive "shoots/runners" coming from it. we shredded the field and had a weed killer applied...

now it has been about a year, i need to say that we have not fertilized because i have heard so many different opinions on it...have decided to hold off until january to put a "full application" on it...but we have since shredded the field again back in August to knock down the dead weeds.

the jiggs is there and i am starting to feel good about it...but we are probably another year from getting good hay...do i feel i was misled? we didn't get a lot of rain and we didn't fertilize...but i have a hard time believing that the "it will cover by spring and cutting hay by summer" was truthful under any condition. turns out the sprigging is not an exact science...which is understandable. we learned a lot.

i did talk with another fellow who contacted me about sprigging his field with Jiggs right after i did mine (also in Medina County). i haven't seen his field, but he called me over the summer to tell me that he was seeing "about the same" type growth...patches that were coming on...but not near the promised results..

i hope this helps...would i do it again? probably...i don't know that any grass would have done what we were promised given the rain situation over the summer. but i have been told, over and over, that the Jiggs is "very aggressive" and will choke out pretty much everything else...that is what i want..

if i can help anyone out there with answering questions, let me know...thanks...

Hey Guys,

I haven't seen a post since November of this year and I don't know if the topic is still active. I am in the same boat to some extint. I have about 35 to 40 acres of pasture that I want to reclaim. It have some clump grass and some native. I am interested in some of your experiences and research. I am new to this as well.

Ray, I would really be interested to know how your crop is turning out as well as how to locate some of the reference materials, Texas A&M documentation and research materials, that you refered to.

I am in Colorado County and I am interested in having a contractor manage my hay fields. Does anyone know what a standard deal is for them. If they cut, bail, fertilize, etc. What percentage does the land owner usually receive and what cut does the contractor get?

If anyone has any answers I would appreciate the help.

Thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark, and Others who may be interested:

Last year, (2005) We had hired a farming "expert" (who was recommended to us) to redo our fields and plant jiggs. He confidently assured us that we would have a hay cutting before the end of the year by the time he was done. (Sound familiar).

He disced the field twice, but failed to show up to do the planting, and as a result of his delay, we had a full-blown weed field.

He then treated the entire weed-field with Round-up to kill off the weeds. (An extra cost item to us.) The weeds did die off, but he again failed to return to the site in a timely fashion to do the planting, and as a result the field was covered with even more weeds than we had before.

I must say, they were beautiful weeds in every way, big, tall, green, if there was a market for weeds, we'd be rich.

Once again, our so-called farming "expert" re-applied the Round-up to kill off the second batch of weeds, (Round-up was the one thing that did work), and when the weeds died off a second time, he actually did come back and re-disced the field, and planted the jiggs tops that he obtained from his own field, which was located just a few miles away from us.

Despite his assurance that they were cut, and planted the same day, and that we had a good rain within 48 hours of planting, the entire planting failed.

We too had random patches of jiggs, a square foot here and there, but that was about it. And, the weeds began to come back again. It was a total crop failure.

It is now early spring (2006), and once again the weeds are coming in strong, and there is no jiggs to be found.

Needless to say, last year's experience (2005) was frustrating, disappointing, and an expensive lesson in reality.

To top it all off, our so-called field planting expert actually "guaranteed" his work, that if we failed to get good results, he'd redo the work. How's that for self-confidence.

So, when we reminded him of his guarantee of positive results, the guarantee vanished with an: "I'll get back to you on that." And, then he stopped returning my phone calls.

You'd think I would be old enough to know better. But somehow I expected the "salt of the earth folks who work the land for a living" would somehow be different.. Silly me.

It appears that some of these folks offering planting services for hire, would do equally as well selling "aluminum siding" or "used cars" for a living. They really know how to "work the room".

I am determined to get this hay field established, and to that end, I have continued doing my research and learning everything that I can about the process. I have a stack of information on hay, and everything it takes to develop a good field.

I feel very confident that with the proper equipment, and with a personal and dedicated effort, I'll get the results that I'm looking for.

Therefore, I am planning on purchasing the necessary equipment, and re-doing the fields myself. I will not pay another so-called farm "expert" for the privelege of learning the same lesson a second time.

I will say that this experience was not a total loss. I feel that anytime that I learn something of value, it was worthwhile, even if the outcome failed.

Thomas Edison was asked one time how it felt to have failed 7,000 times while trying to develop the electric light bulb. He replied: "I didn't fail, I discovered 7,000 things that don't work."

When it comes to failure, I feel that I'm in good company.

For you folks who would like to do some hay research, I'd suggest going on "Google", and do a wide variety of searches using various "search words" and read as many of the articles that pop up as you can, giving special attention to the Academic Publications and research papers produced by Texas A&M (and other Universities), they truly are the best. However, use exteme caution in dealing with Corporate information sources who have a vested interest in selling you their products.

I hope my shared experience is of some help to someone out there. I have talked to a number of folks, who were not born to farming, but decided to take it up later in life, and without exception, when they started out, they made mistakes, had gotten bad advice, and had gotten poor service from outside contractors... But are now doing well now, after completing their early "learning curve".

I'm in the early stages of my learning curve and am not deterred by a few bumps in the road.

You folks have a great day. God smiles on us all.

Rayko

My post to this thread: I bought my farm in Wise County 10 years ago. I've fought with gas companies drilling in my best pastures (I don't have the mineral rights), pastures over-grazed from horses, and had over commiting and under delivering from the same kind of experts Ray describes.

The only way I feel in control is owning the equipment and doing the work myself. I work 40 acres with a JD5210, NH 1411 mower, a 8 wheel rake, and a NH 565 square baler. Except for the tractor, all were used when I bought them. The economics may not make sense, but the frustration of depending on someone else was unbelieveable. How many cuts lay on the ground while my expert didn't return for 5 days, and the hay was repeatly rained on? A bunch. How many times did the coastal turn to seed, 2-3 weeks after it was ready for cutting, and then my expert shows up? Too many.

I'm preparing to lightly disc all my pastures, with a really old 6 foot harrow. I have coastal, it's been good, and will most likely re-sprig the over grazed pasture with a hybrid as you all have been discussing. Elsewhere, I'll dry fertilize 19-19-19 at 300 lb/acre. I've got a new soil sample at the TAMU lab to see what's up and what I need to do as a consequence.

I too look forward to hearing how you're all fairing with getting your pastures under your control.


John

I am enjoying reading yall's storys, I am one of those farm contractors and this year we had bad results planting due to the hot and dry weather,but when they call me I do take the phone calls and go look at the fields and I don't guarantee a stand but I will go back and make it right. After reading your post it sounds like they planted the jiggs to early,I like to wait until it is starting to green up and then plant with sprigs,not tops although tops will work if done right and the weather is right.Also don't plant too deep fertilize properly and control weeds and on a good year(good rainfall) I have customers cut up to 3 times and make good hay on the same year that it was planted, jiggs and Tifton 85, I hope that you keep posting here on how everything turns out. Thanks

I have about 100 acres in San Jacinto County that I am currently clearing underbrush and trash trees. I'd like to plant jiggs. I have about 4-6 acres that are currently in jiggs and can be bailed. What does it mean to plant jiggs "in tops"? Can someone help me with that phrase? Also, is there any truth to the idea of spreading a jiggs bale and discing it in to plant jiggs? Would appreciate any and all assistance.

From Dr. Larry Redmon, State Forage Specialist, TAMU. The term is "planting tops" where the aboveground tops (leaves/stems) are planted versus sprigs, which are more or less, the roots of the bermudagrass plant. You cannot plant jiggs hay bales and expect any establishment. Tops of jiggs (six nodes to the stem is the indication that the top is mature enough to harvest and plant) may be harvested with hay harvest equipment, baled only long enough to remove from the field, and immediately broken open and planted. Planting may be accomplished by simply broadcasting the tops on top of the prepared seedbed, lightly disked in to a depth of 2-3", and rolled to seal the surface and increase soil-top contact.

Let me know if you have additional questions.

Thank you Michelle for taking the time to get Dr. Redmons information out onto this forum. It is much needed!!

From personal experience, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of getting the fresh cut "tops" planted into most soil or right before a rain or both. Fresh cut means within a few hours - the sooner the better or they just dry out. Don't skip the packing step as it removes many of the air pockets around the tops so they won't dry out.

I had to plant twice before getting it right. The first planter swore his tops were perfect. Only later did I learn they had been sitting on his trailer for two days before being planted in my field. Guess what - very little of it came up. The second time I did it myself. I have a nice hayfield now. Educate yourself first and then monitor the process to make sure it's performed properly.